tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post5602956428222225519..comments2024-03-26T02:03:33.336-07:00Comments on Mazirian's Garden: Rules for CitycrawlingBen L.http://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-49468698476968381452020-11-19T11:50:55.059-08:002020-11-19T11:50:55.059-08:00Glad you enjoyed, I look forward to seeing your th...Glad you enjoyed, I look forward to seeing your thoughts!<br /><br />Here's the system I've tried running a bit by smashing together Justin's approach with Paolo's "Gangs and Bullshit" (https://tsojcanth.wordpress.com/2015/09/08/gangs-bullshit-the-gang/):<br />https://jpowellrussell.com/gaming/2016-06-22-what-do-you-do-in-city-default/<br /><br />So far, my experience has been that it's tough to properly nail the level of detail for the abstract role, and to transition effectively between the abstraction and the zooming in. Also, I don't think the AW style roll is the right way to go, but I'm not a big fan of 3E style skills as Justin uses, so I'm working on fixing it. I think an important point I messed up is that doing the "urbancrawl roll" shouldn't get you money or other resources, it should only point you to contacts and adventures that can do that for you, making it more of a downtime/few times a session thing, rather than a core part of play.Jeff Russellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14017877412359840010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-58044770011164675762020-11-18T08:14:16.715-08:002020-11-18T08:14:16.715-08:00Wow the Alexandrian posts are really interesting. ...Wow the Alexandrian posts are really interesting. I'll do a post eventually with my thoughts on Justin's posts.Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-57376833966569318072020-11-18T07:47:40.953-08:002020-11-18T07:47:40.953-08:00I didn't know about that post at the Alexandri...I didn't know about that post at the Alexandrian, it's really fascinating! I agree that the system I'm developing is intended for people who are visiting a city, e.g. a party from the waking world visiting a Dunsanian metropolis from the dreamlands, rather than someone living in it. Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-71318307007786647582020-11-17T14:34:50.735-08:002020-11-17T14:34:50.735-08:00Ah, excellent, thank you for clarifying!
I was in...Ah, excellent, thank you for clarifying!<br /><br />I was inspired to ask about non-physical points on the map because Justin over at the Alexandrian talks about such in his "Thinking About Urbancrawls" series here: http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/36473/roleplaying-games/thinking-about-urbancrawls<br /><br />He draws inspiration from Kenneth Hite's "Conspyramid" as featured in Night's Black Agents.<br /><br />In brief, his approach to urbancrawls is to treat the "neighborhood" (however largely you define that) as the unit of exploration, as a hex is in the hexcrawl, but that depending on how you go about exploring it, you might find things from different "layers" - e.g. all or some neighborhoods might have evidence of a vampiric conspiracy, all or some might have thieves' guild activities, all likely have some kind of illicit business you can find out about, and so on. I found the idea incredibly cool when I read about it, but trying to implement it has been a challenge. I think that a more granular pointcrawl, as you describe, that handles things like factions and conspiracies as separate systems that you find out about through clues at those points, might be a better way to go about it.<br /><br />For me, where the idea of a non-physical pointcrawl has the most appeal is in a city that the PCs know well - if you already know all the shortcuts and the characters of the different neighborhoods, but you're not following a particular adventure hook right now, what's a default way to "poke around" and find something interesting to engage with. Maybe this is more of a theoretical problem than a real one, as players tend to get plenty entangled as time goes on, but it's one I'm still thinking about.Jeff Russellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14017877412359840010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-36067343264353596782020-11-17T11:00:49.104-08:002020-11-17T11:00:49.104-08:00Hey, Jeff, here are some answers.
(1) I map every...Hey, Jeff, here are some answers. <br />(1) I map every known location as a point. The way I'm doing it now is that there are connections between some nodes in one neighborhood and nodes in the next neighborhood over. This lets me have the point crawls roughly projected over an imagined city map. But I could see doing it more abstractly with the bigger and smaller scale maps you mention, but then you would need to know what point you "entered" a neighborhood on, when you came from various locations. <br />(2) Yes, the way I've written up the neighborhood I was working on just now, some of the floating hidden locations are shortcuts to adjacent neighborhoods. These would be uncovered between known nodes in the normal way, and would allow one to enter another neighborhood without making an encounter check. There's a matching hidden location in the other neighborhood too--find one and you find both (just two ways of coming at the same shortcut). <br />3. The nodes are entirely geographical, on the model of a typical pointcrawl. Each neighborhood has writeups for factions, and locations mention individuals. Many secret locations are tied to factions and interesting individuals, but it's an approach to the city that emphasizes it as a space to be explored. I would be *very* interested to see an approach that treated the points and nodes as something else, as you suggest. <br />4. I don't have systems for treating the city as a dynamic thing that evolves, partly in response to player action, YET. But to be clear, the only sense in which a node could be cleared would be if whatever made visiting it worth treating as a point was destroyed. I.e. if it's a flea market and the market gets shut down by the authorities or burned down by the players or something. In that case, I probably would have something new move in, although as I say, I don't have a system for this at present.Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-39557839954299873092020-11-17T10:40:51.438-08:002020-11-17T10:40:51.438-08:00I very much like your system here, Ben, especially...I very much like your system here, Ben, especially the secret locations and getting lost (and their interaction). <br /><br />A handful of procedural questions:<br />1) Do you map every location as a "point", leading to a map with 120 nodes for Zyan, maybe with borders around neighborhoods, or do you have a pointcrawl between neighborhoods, and then "zoom in" to a neighborhood map?<br />2) If the more granular approach, can you find secret locations from neighboring neighborhoods, or only from the neighborhood they belong to? Strikes me that this might be a way to implement the shortcuts mentioned up thread. <br />3) Are the nodes entirely geographical, or are they a mix of physical/social? For example, are there any nodes that are something like "this guy wants to hire someone to rob the duke"?<br />4) Other than rolling new encounters, any mechanism for refreshing/updating nodes that have been "cleared" (e.g. "We robbed the duke, does this guy have any other shady work he wants done?"<br /><br />Asking since I'm working on my own fantasy metropolis and trying to figure out how to make it work as an open table, and this seems like a promising approach.Jeff Russellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14017877412359840010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-75483270856848446522020-11-08T12:42:05.463-08:002020-11-08T12:42:05.463-08:00Yeah Genial Jack is definitely a pre-taste for Hex...Yeah Genial Jack is definitely a pre-taste for Hex, more of a mid-sized town than a big city. Pretty much every street in Hex is getting similar treatment to each *district* in Genial Jack Volume 1. Which means it is taking forever to write, but it *is* coming.Bearded-Devilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16415023478845579936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-55662130513545770482020-11-08T12:36:22.837-08:002020-11-08T12:36:22.837-08:00Fantastic mechanics - love to see a variety of app...Fantastic mechanics - love to see a variety of approaches to urban adventuring.Bearded-Devilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16415023478845579936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-44685489748044173852020-11-02T00:24:01.012-08:002020-11-02T00:24:01.012-08:00I'm planning a steampunk monster-hunting campa...I'm planning a steampunk monster-hunting campaign and got inspired by this post. So I'm attempting to build a 10 neighborhood mega-city. Coming up with 240 locations is not easy. I've got basic ideas for... about 2/3rds at this point, but each one is just a name or line. Haven't even touched the random encounters yet.<br /><br />It's been fun working on it though, and it'll be impressive if I ever get it done. Also doing around 30 noble houses intersecting the various locations and services.<br /><br />So, anyway, thanks for the inspiring idea(s)!Griffinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14365659989927783999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-23753815290571773332020-10-30T16:15:10.838-07:002020-10-30T16:15:10.838-07:00This is really cool! A lovely post.This is really cool! A lovely post.Lukahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06128243419331070108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-3028520991445836422020-10-22T14:30:56.772-07:002020-10-22T14:30:56.772-07:00No name yet...ways to go yet - not on facebook - b...No name yet...ways to go yet - not on facebook - but will be putting stuff on the blog eventually over at Perplexing Ruins - still much to learnPerplexing Ruinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08348430496414812489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-11870482076419717962020-10-22T12:31:41.171-07:002020-10-22T12:31:41.171-07:00That sounds like your funning. Knowing your blog, ...That sounds like your funning. Knowing your blog, I bet that big chart was pretty great. Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-59962719159084983422020-10-22T12:30:49.002-07:002020-10-22T12:30:49.002-07:00Wonderful! What is the name of the zine? Is this s...Wonderful! What is the name of the zine? Is this something you posted about on Facebook?Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-89605770123924525792020-10-22T11:13:56.325-07:002020-10-22T11:13:56.325-07:00This is a really nice post. My first city in my c...This is a really nice post. My first city in my campaign when I came back to gaming ~2008 was unmapped, I didn't like the idea that this weird and wondrous place could be nailed down. I said the businesses moved from building to building every few days, finding a particular shop required a dice rolling mini-game that you could improve your chances on by buying guides. But what made me want to comment, is that I had a big chart of rare wonders and every time players tried to find something they rolled on it to see what they encountered. They loved it, they were often more interested in what they randomly encountered than what they had set out to find.Telecanterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238356788092725244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-58050482612405485522020-10-21T14:38:51.400-07:002020-10-21T14:38:51.400-07:00I grew up spending summers in medieval German town...I grew up spending summers in medieval German town and those feelings of experiencing something wholly different, older, and more mysterious than middle America relates to these notions of exploring. Hidden corners of antiquity, barred off tower windows, ancient stone sites.<br />Newer member to rpgs, but to learn I have been reading and trying to write game material. This post is rather timely, in that I have spent the past week working on a pointcrawl/ node-based table generation zinefor a city setting. Perplexing Ruinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08348430496414812489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-16982172011092774002020-10-21T13:54:13.637-07:002020-10-21T13:54:13.637-07:00Hot Springs Island is an interesting take on hexcr...Hot Springs Island is an interesting take on hexcrawling for sure that has a family resemblance to this approach. The same could be said about UVG's "discoveries". They all share the idea that there should be hidden layers to travel and exploration in a non-dungeon context. It's neat to think about them as each trying to do something similar in a different context. Thanks! Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-56164935430205239472020-10-20T20:11:40.784-07:002020-10-20T20:11:40.784-07:00If I may piggyback on that observation, the way Ho...If I may piggyback on that observation, the way Hot Springs Island sets up its wilderness hexcrawl, with each hex having 3 hidden features that each require a certain time-commitment to find, could be another way at this (though personally I think I favor the pointcrawl approach. And the existence of chokepoints doesn't bother me! They may seem quite unrealistic in Manhattan, say, but when I lived in the Boston area for some years, chokepoints were a normal part of moving across the city). <br /><br />Thanks for the interesting post. Gundobadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14335443896772607081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-90801543946328696392020-10-20T07:24:49.649-07:002020-10-20T07:24:49.649-07:00That sounds fascinating and closely related to wha...That sounds fascinating and closely related to what I'm trying to do. If you stumble on the reference, drop it here for sure, I'd be interested in taking a look.Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-31353974975602109512020-10-20T07:23:47.816-07:002020-10-20T07:23:47.816-07:00Gus I really look forward to seeing what you come ...Gus I really look forward to seeing what you come up with here. I like a lot the idea of differentiating the kinds of resource management as the cost and grinds of living that drive players to adventure. I think it's a different model in that your system is about living in a city, whereas mine is more about visiting a city for short stays, i.e. dipping in for active adventuring for several sessions, and then leaving, and coming back later again, and so on. Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-67805263547915445392020-10-20T00:14:58.507-07:002020-10-20T00:14:58.507-07:00Somewhere I read a blogpost about a very similar s...Somewhere I read a blogpost about a very similar system using a hexcrawls. Neighborhoods were represented as hexes, every neighborhood has one (or more) landmark locations, that are well enough known (or easy enough to find) that even strangers will find them when entering a neighborhood. The neighborhoods also have hidden locations, that must be found by searching in the hex. You can always travel to known locations in the same, or in neighboring hexes.<br />This also evades the problem of locations being chokepoints. Klaus Gerkenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04364552750137989056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-1736482547970343982020-10-19T19:13:21.066-07:002020-10-19T19:13:21.066-07:00Your childhood anecdote is beautiful, and makes me...Your childhood anecdote is beautiful, and makes me think of my own wonder of going out at night in the City, and experience that never quite left me - wandering home debauched from a familiar bar, down a different street then the usual can still be an adventure and phantasmagoria.<br /><br />As to urban adventures I like your system - it seems solidly workable, and that's a compliment. My own impulse is to make the city alien to the dungeon and the wilderness and focus narrowly on two aspects of urban life, especially pre-modern urban life: money and time. I can't say Ive figured out a system here, I've tried and gotten distracted, but to me the fantasy city is a place where strangers like the PCs have their treasure siphoned away, where finding the right thing and finding work are the dangers, not random encounters, (I like the secrets thing - its in this vein). I'd impose ruinous costs by day to hunt rumors, survive, shop and make friends. danger only presents itself when the PC runs out of cash or refuses to pay and then the urban predators take notice. The struggle is to keep one's clothes nice, pay the bribes and find dubious adventure jobs/secret contacts before the urban tide pulls you under or you have to go back into the wilds.<br /><br />By time I don't mean its simple passage, but its regimentation - each week a fantasy city should have inexplicable going-ons, fluctuations in prices, public events, parades, inquisitions, press gangs etc. A randomized calendar that interacts with and confuses the PC's steady progression to pauperism, disrupting plans.<br /><br />A city supplement would thus include:<br />Description and map<br />Weekly/Daily costs<br />Event generator<br />By Neighborhood rumor, secret, personality and job generators<br />1-2 secret dungeons<br />Dangerous random encounters for when you run out of money (mostly cops that keep you penned up in the bad neighborhood where there's no jobs/rumors)<br /><br />Anyway I'm excited by this post.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-66499074012557467022020-10-19T15:37:39.843-07:002020-10-19T15:37:39.843-07:00Sorry for the confusion in my double-post...we don...Sorry for the confusion in my double-post...we don’t have print copies of Matt’s City Encounters, only the old pdf.J Hershbergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01258836028044568709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-32176703184863867862020-10-19T14:05:09.458-07:002020-10-19T14:05:09.458-07:00Will do! Thank Jon. I have a PDF but I'd love ...Will do! Thank Jon. I have a PDF but I'd love to snag a hard copy.Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-23817024163787859752020-10-19T14:04:31.496-07:002020-10-19T14:04:31.496-07:00I agree it shouldn't be forgotten. I'm wor...I agree it shouldn't be forgotten. I'm working on a review of Genial Jack, which is a pre-taste. But I think we'll have hex in published form before too too long.Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-13573528583393678482020-10-19T13:08:22.840-07:002020-10-19T13:08:22.840-07:00Don't forget Hex!Don't forget Hex!HDAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13506175636615989219noreply@blogger.com