tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post8204779494904558887..comments2024-03-26T02:03:33.336-07:00Comments on Mazirian's Garden: Pleasures of the OSR: Secrecy and DiscoveryBen L.http://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-15482433385523550352022-02-19T17:54:16.911-08:002022-02-19T17:54:16.911-08:00I do prep and tend to "stick to the script&qu...I do prep and tend to "stick to the script" and not change anything. Players will *always* inevitably wander off script and will provide plenty of opportunities to improvise. Ideally, what I want is to highlight the things that games do *differently* (or perhaps better) than other mediums (like books or films). Instead of just emulating other things, you play to find out (I believe that is is a kind of discovery). Any emergent stories that appear are only due to the players choices and a series of (usually wacky) die rolls. Any story that accidentally appears is due looking backward on the events and making sense of them afterwards. Sort of like how a person's lived experience is completely different than a tidy biopic version of their life.B. Portly Esq.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15481964118769949033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-84156398547735008382019-05-09T08:12:39.520-07:002019-05-09T08:12:39.520-07:00There''s a reason theories need to define ...There''s a reason theories need to define their terms rigorously. I personally like "discovery" with its connotations relating to exploration, but "revelation" might be a better choice (i.e. the DM merely reveals pre-existing facts).Ynas Midgardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972628887096890642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-43878136152395176452019-05-04T04:20:42.307-07:002019-05-04T04:20:42.307-07:00Great series so far!Great series so far!Jeremy "frothsof" Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04663928183049867947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-91205515565332271112019-04-29T11:56:07.934-07:002019-04-29T11:56:07.934-07:00Thank you for writing this. I think this matches m...Thank you for writing this. I think this matches my experience to the point. The joy of discovery as a referee is something even get for things that I don't see other people talk about all that often. I like rolling for treasure, even if I made up all the magic items and all the treasure tables, because this is a small step in the direction of my own suspension of disbelief. If I rolled for it, I find it easier to believe in the independent existence of the world.<br />Conversely, as I player I started to notice that I don't like it when the referee uses no screen, and I get to see the improvisation happening right then and there. You put my disappointment into words. It's more made up now that I see it happening.Alex Schroederhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17104864340940538702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-7950920812557850822019-04-28T15:22:39.382-07:002019-04-28T15:22:39.382-07:00I'm really glad you're writing them. They&...I'm really glad you're writing them. They're obviously provoking a lot of conversation, and I'm enjoying reading the comment threads almost as much as the main article.<br /><br />And I do think that the "creation vs discovery" dichotomy taps into something real in the way we experience things at the table.Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15493700749333105771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-88490466240877796452019-04-26T08:58:43.683-07:002019-04-26T08:58:43.683-07:00Anne thanks for this comment. It's interesting...Anne thanks for this comment. It's interesting to see what everyone's response is, partly because the things I'm trying to talk about are so much about how something feels at the table (i.e. what's fun and why). So it's always relevant data when something doesn't sound quite right to someone who plays in roughly the same kinds of games I'm talking about. I hear what you're saying about the tables. I agree that's there's fun in being surprised along with your players. I also agree that having things externalized into tables can work like discovery, especially when the tables in some way communicate the character of a place. I also agree at this point that I was using the term "discovery" too narrowly, I dragooned it for my own purposes by playing up some of its connotations and suppressing other uses of it that sound just fine in context.<br /><br />I also agree that there's some room between the player makes a thing up, and the player prompts the DM who makes a thing up. It's a little too quick to argue from: "you lose discovery if you're making it all up yourself" to "you lose a sense of discovery if someone else is making it up on the spot". Maybe in a sense yes and in a sense no. The best part of writing this thing is the conversations that are coming out of it.Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-82074448459557975232019-04-25T20:27:16.267-07:002019-04-25T20:27:16.267-07:00Ben, I really appreciate you writing this, because...Ben, I really appreciate you writing this, because it's got me thinking about procedural generation, and it's a topic I enjoy thinking about.<br /><br />One thing I like, as a referee, with running procedural generation, is that I get to experience the "joy of discovery" alongside my players.<br /><br />I think the "discovery vs creation" dichotomy makes sense, but I also think I believe that procedural generation is discovery, not creation.<br /><br />I guess part of it's that I think that rolling the dice at the table isn't *meaningfully* different than rolling them all in advance, making a list of the results, and just working your way down that list during the game.<br /><br />So when we procedurally generate the dungeon at the table during play, I feel like we ARE discovering something that already exists. We're discovering a dungeon that exists because the tables of results exist, and the list of numbers exists, even though we have to roll the dice to learn what the next number on the list is. <br /><br />Applying the procedures of matching dice results to table entries feels like decoding a text that was written in a cipher. The text is already written, but by decoding it there at the table, I get to discover it at the same time as my players, and I enjoy the communal nature of that experience. <br /><br />It's also enjoyable for me to discover the dungeon first, during prep, and then watch as my players discover it again for themselves, but the first of those is a more individualistic pleasure, and the second is communal, but not in the same way.<br /><br />When it comes to creation, I think there also might be a difference worth noting between "the player created the thing" and "the player prompted the ref, who then created the thing." The second of those might not be discovery, exactly, but it still preserves for the player the opportunity to be pleasurably surprised by the referee's creation.<br /><br />To be clear though, this is not me trying to argue with you. This is me feeling prompted by you to think through some of the things I enjoy.Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15493700749333105771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-53833269938543792802019-04-24T13:23:06.583-07:002019-04-24T13:23:06.583-07:00I get that Trey. I think perhaps "discovery&q...I get that Trey. I think perhaps "discovery" was overly broad. I'm OK with narrowing it a bit. (I'm not trying to bait and switch here, so I'm happy to concede that my point may have less force than it appeared to at the start. I struggle to come up with a language for my experience here.) I also get that it's not necessarily the main thing, and also that the idea of more or less being good might not really make sense above a certain threshold. This conversation is food for thought.Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-40941116633574807542019-04-24T13:19:05.570-07:002019-04-24T13:19:05.570-07:00Handy, I agree that it's not an attractive ide...Handy, I agree that it's not an attractive idea to work everything out in advance (whatever that would mean). First of all, knowing who a major NPC is, what they want generally speaking and one personality trait, may be more than enough information. Why would I want to know their hairstyle? Similarly, jotted room notes will do just fine. I'm not saying to overprep. I'm just saying that there's a particular set of pleasures that come from interacting with a location, NPC, setting, etc. that's already there, so to speak. I tried to say something about the role of randomness--I think random procedures are just fine; they aren't necessarily even in tension with this. I would count the reaction roll as such a thing. <br /><br />And OBVIOUSLY I'm against all forms of railroading. I 100% agree that any model of "prepping" that gets in the way of emergent stories or open worlds is bad. (My next post is about emergent stories and open worlds, so I'll say more soon.) The whole fun is to see what unpredictable things happen when players interact with the world. For me, that's the main point. Pursuing the pleasure of discovery stands in no tension with emergent stories and open worlds. If you design your dungeon (factions, sandobox, setting) right, then it enables rather than hinders open-ended play. <br /><br />For what it's worth, zero prep games could totally be railroads. The degree of prep, and how much of a railroad a game is, are two different questions, at least if you approach prep in the right way. Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-50718499056554768672019-04-24T13:03:19.580-07:002019-04-24T13:03:19.580-07:00I agree with this part for sure: as a player you c...I agree with this part for sure: as a player you can't always tell what's going on behind the screen. So it's not always clear cut, and often it flows from one to the other (prep to improv) without disrupting the experience. But I strongly disagree that it makes no difference to my experience as player. I definitely have a palpable sense of anticipation that comes from knowing that the DM has a location or faction, etc worked out. When I very first enter a cool dungeon, when I'm on the threshold and anticipation is highest, knowing that it already has a concept, and that there is something "there" for me to explore does make a difference to me. Generally speaking, my experience is more enjoyable as a player, when I have the sense that the DM knows what the mysteries are, whether it's dungeon, setting lore, or NPC faction, and that I'm discovering that thing. Of course there are many other pleasures than this one, so it's not everything, or even necessarily the main thing. But still, for me, it's A thing. Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-57964750230905850152019-04-24T08:36:17.174-07:002019-04-24T08:36:17.174-07:00This has been lingering in my mind since I read it...This has been lingering in my mind since I read it yesterday. I am not sure my reaction is any clearer now than it was then, but.<br /><br />I feel like there's a middle ground between what you describe as the necessary condition for the discovery joy and zero prep. It's what Trey's getting at I think? Mainly, that like any good plan, all the prep in the world lasts right up until the first punch is thrown.<br /><br />That is, while I might know the NPCs, know in broad strokes what they want and where their loyalties like, the expression of that and any given NPCs actions toward furthering those goals and loyalties will always be determined by what the players bring to the confrontation.<br /><br />There's no way to effect and no one would want to read an NPC description so finely detailed it can take into account anything the players say or any tack they take. The map would be the size of the territory, and people are too big to put in RPGs -- that's why we have a DM. So there is discovery for the DM as the sketches of a personality -- the NPC background -- meet the actual conditions of interaction with the players. <br /><br />Plus, there are reaction dice, which nicely reflect the randomness of mood, vibe, whim, and affect to provide yet another way for the DM to explore a given encounter.<br /><br />So ... still not sure I'm getting at this. Just that between zero prep and ultimate all-knowing prep there's the space where I think most games (definitely my game) tend to happen, and there's enough in-built randomness and unpredictable reaction to unforeseeable events that the discovery there is always going to be a reward for both players and DM.<br /><br />In other words, I barely know how I'm going to react to stuff in regular life, let alone how a personality I'm inhabiting based on a paragraph or so of text is going to react to the truly weird stuff players can come up with on the fly.<br /><br />tl;dr: The owl and the bear had no idea they'd fall in love, until ...Handy Haversackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00786906798254907957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-1724302150679472322019-04-24T07:01:21.458-07:002019-04-24T07:01:21.458-07:00This article made me realize that what we call &qu...This article made me realize that what we call "storytelling" role-plays in Italy are quite different from those that you describe here. When we talk about storytelling we mean a game in which mood and plot sometimes overcome mechanics. Example: to keep the "momentum" of combat, combat rules are very simple and fast, so players concentrate on the fury and not on the tactical, boardgamish side. But the gamemaster role is still very separated from the player's: he's the only owner of the story and its secrets. The major risk is, of course, railroading, because there's often a plot that, in a way or the other, has to be followed. And of course a bigger focus on the emotional side of playing characters and their relationships. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-45930913355230079062019-04-23T22:40:57.441-07:002019-04-23T22:40:57.441-07:00I like the general gist - discovery is a huge part...I like the general gist - discovery is a huge part of OSR play. But it seems like you are talking about two very different experiences - the experience of the players and the experience of the DM. When I run things (and let me say this is only my anecdotal experience) I don't see a huge difference in the reactions on the other side whether things are prepped ahead of time or if I'm basically prepping right ahead of them in real time. Either way the players and characters are discovering things and they are then a fact in the game world. I guess I'm saying I don't think the players can usually really tell what's planned and what's not unless you are actively telling them. I usually can't when I'm a player. The fun of seeing players interact with a very planned environment can be very enjoyable but I wouldn't necessarily privilege it over other methods of DMing.ligehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00652431558688176341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-84646817680552159422019-04-23T05:15:20.418-07:002019-04-23T05:15:20.418-07:00I guess I'm feeling you are defining "dis...I guess I'm feeling you are defining "discovery" and its related joy rather narrowly, at least for me and what it appears to me I see players experiencing. And I'm not so sure (for me, again) that the quality of the joy is so quantitized that being 80% in on the secret is significantly less enjoyable than being 100% in on the secret.Treyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04647628467658839351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-78302447470241691632019-04-22T21:23:53.396-07:002019-04-22T21:23:53.396-07:00Love the theory! I especially love the distinct pl...Love the theory! I especially love the distinct pleasure of discovering deadly gas in a wax sealed coffin!Michael Kennedyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07814549625838944634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-41976779702944337392019-04-22T13:17:13.953-07:002019-04-22T13:17:13.953-07:00Again that's not a knock against story games, ...Again that's not a knock against story games, since they're trying to do a different thing, and they have their own rich pleasures. Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-28729305831525948292019-04-22T13:16:10.324-07:002019-04-22T13:16:10.324-07:00Trey, I agree with what you're saying. I don&#...Trey, I agree with what you're saying. I don't think the pleasures of discovery are the only pleasures. Of course, there's pleasure to improvising something on the spot, to taking things in a direction that flows and fits, and is fun. <br /><br />But I do think that if you've done zero prep as a DM then you can't have the pleasures I describe of being in on the secret, feeling the tension in advance, and so on. The less you know about the joint they're walking into, the less you will have it. So the more you're improvising by the seat of your pants, the less you'll have of the sort of pleasure I'm describing. <br /><br />I also think as a player there are many pleasures that don't depend on discovering what was there. There's overcoming challenges, generating emergent stories, thinking on your feet, experiencing amazing scenes, playing true to character, lots and lots of good stuff, some of which I'll discuss later. (The next post is on the pleasures of "emergent story" and "openness of the world".) But I do think that to the extent that it's being improvised and you know it, to just that extent you can't have the pleasure of discovering things. So again, it's not the only, but is A thing, and it's a thing that story games steer you away from and OSR games steer you towardsBen L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-4025332718765392872019-04-22T12:59:14.489-07:002019-04-22T12:59:14.489-07:00Interesting analysis! Your "discovery vs. cre...Interesting analysis! Your "discovery vs. creation" dichotomy seems to suggest that if a GM made something up on the spot the players would know it and be robbed of the joy of discovery. I don't believe that to be necessarily the case.<br /><br />I guess as a DM, I don't feel bound by all the details I made up in prep, or at the very least, I'm not constantly checking my notes for 100% fidelity. I'm I robbing my players of the chance at discovery if I change some details on the fly in your view?<br /><br />Also, I would argue that as a DM, when I don't know <i>exactly</i> what I'm going to present, there is some discovery to for me to. A musician may write a song, but each performance may well be unique and spontaneous, to a degree.Treyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04647628467658839351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-61184769104108939652019-04-22T07:04:53.442-07:002019-04-22T07:04:53.442-07:00Hi Aaron, let me try to answer your questions.
(1...Hi Aaron, let me try to answer your questions.<br /><br />(1) My point is that if the GM or a player has just made something up, then the other players (and the GM) can't have the experience of discovery in the sense I'm discussing it. Discovering something in the sense that goes with the pleasure i'm talking about is finding out something that's already a fact. With rolling something on a table it might or might not be like that, it all depends. So, for example, a well-designed random encounter table describes the ecology of a place, the movement of its factions, and denizens and so on. These are pre-established facts about the place. So when you have a random encounter you discover something (a pre-existing fact) about the adventure locale: like crabmen are a faction with a base somewhere in here and they travel around this joint. But it's true that you don't discover e.g. that crabmen are in this particular room right now, since that fact didn't exist independently of the roll. <br /><br />But other cases of rolling are not like this, for example, ways of procedurally generating an environment. My point was that these DO detract from the pleasure of discovery since bumping into something as rolled doesn't teach you about some pre-exiting fact. <br /><br />(2) Not at all. Lovecratesque, for example, is a zero prep game. So OSR games are certainly not the only low prep games. In fact, part of my point is that one way that OSR type games are pleasurable depends on them NOT being low prep. Since I love the pleasures of secrecy and discovery, my games are extremely high prep games for example. My point is just that there's a tension here in that people in the OSR often say they value low prep gaming (and do!), but I'm pointing out that this preference is in some tension with the getting the pleasures of secrecy and discovery Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-18892057891701157212019-04-22T06:19:54.205-07:002019-04-22T06:19:54.205-07:00I dig this post. I find myself much more on the st...I dig this post. I find myself much more on the story game side of this artificial fence, so I have some questions:<br /><br />1. How is "I discovered a thing the GM rolled just now" distinctly different from "I discovered something someone at the table just made up"? I don't see a major difference aside from the player creating the thing didn't discover the thing - but they do get the satisfaction of creation. This is often a thing reserved for the GM, but even in the D&D I used to play, it was common to ask something akin to "PC, you're hunting vampires, right? How do they kill?"<br /><br />2. I'm not sure if you're positing only OSR games as "low prep", but it feels that way. Even OSR games are higher prep that most of the story-game adjacent things I run. In OSR games I need appropriate maps, tables, etc. In other games I just use the other players' collaberations as random input (in place of tables). Can you explain your low prep point a bit more?Aaron Griffinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14640702836139770737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-65142058492902292732019-04-21T16:14:29.080-07:002019-04-21T16:14:29.080-07:00Great post. The player vs. character discovery dyn...Great post. The player vs. character discovery dynamic is so crucial. The point about procedural generation not being incompatible with discovery is a good one... is it relevant that Gardens of Ynn has an in-universe justification for being procedurally generated? The randomness or shifting nature of the Gardens doesn't break the verisimilitudinous meniscus because of the surface tension provided by a Borgesian physics? :pBearded-Devilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16415023478845579936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-84212679115163614172019-04-21T10:35:26.561-07:002019-04-21T10:35:26.561-07:00Secrets are definitely my favourite part of preppi...Secrets are definitely my favourite part of prepping for my home game. Although I do regret the time spent agonizing over random encounter tables that 'make sense' to me, it's worth it when the players say "who were THOSE guys?"HDAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13506175636615989219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-88312539703285550402019-04-21T09:49:51.267-07:002019-04-21T09:49:51.267-07:00I recently "discovered" The Gardens of Y...I recently "discovered" The Gardens of Ynn. Merely reading it gave me a sense of wonder and discovery.<br /><br />I think you are completely right about what OSR provides to players. Through world building and exploration of that, players and DM's have a shared experience, which is unlike any other type of game. Phil Viveritohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00316096327859610399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-89328042907093843762019-04-21T07:39:53.458-07:002019-04-21T07:39:53.458-07:00Extremely salient analysis, as always. I usually e...Extremely salient analysis, as always. I usually end up reducing this to a discussion of immersion: I like the feeling that I'm <i>there</i> whenever I'm playing a game, lost in description and interacting with the PCs. Storygames' focus on genre emulation tends to produce more polished narratives at the end, but a lot of the mechanics are expressly designed to remind me I'm playing a game. Conversely, in OSR games, I usually only feel remotely removed from the setting during combat.<br /><br />That having been said, I've enjoyed my forays into storygames and still play them and OSR games with abandon.S. P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/18219512413362952481noreply@blogger.com