tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post7067285151854828166..comments2024-03-26T02:03:33.336-07:00Comments on Mazirian's Garden: Pleasures of the OSR: Emergent Story and Open WorldsBen L.http://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-24856664192694582432021-01-23T20:36:22.053-08:002021-01-23T20:36:22.053-08:00I was about to reply the same thing. Most people g...I was about to reply the same thing. Most people go to hexmaps, though, because it's a hell of a lot easier than vector mapping a few hundred square miles.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04786498942396099197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-45662192763710798632020-07-12T21:04:48.774-07:002020-07-12T21:04:48.774-07:00That's EVEN MORE HARDCORE. The legend of West ...That's EVEN MORE HARDCORE. The legend of West Marches waxes greater and greater.Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-52959016184317267862020-07-04T11:04:07.718-07:002020-07-04T11:04:07.718-07:00Just a small correction to this excellent post: We...Just a small correction to this excellent post: West Marches was not a hex crawl, though this is a common misconception. Ben Robbins used a scale map of the terrain (made in Adobe Illustrator) and plotted the players' movements with a pencil and ruler.<br /><br />He states this somewhere in the comments of his blog, where he says, "No hexes, no squares — just an open terrain map where I drew vectors to keep track of where the party was.<br />When you use hexes you create the illusion that once the explorers see that a hex contains 'forest' you have explored the whole hex. Convenient in games that want to speed up exploration, but the opposite of what you want in a West Marches game."Vivificienthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08896036541111095866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-50471520018200821202019-06-02T05:36:19.744-07:002019-06-02T05:36:19.744-07:00I love this mindset, it's really opened my eye...I love this mindset, it's really opened my eyes on how to run (and play) a game. When the DM and players come together to build the story that's just magic - it's become the centre of my campaign prep.Tom Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00512219290892896310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-68881419214128177172019-05-28T00:13:30.775-07:002019-05-28T00:13:30.775-07:00Thanks for sharing such an informative post.
Himac...Thanks for sharing such an informative post.<br /><a href="https://himachaltourtravel.in/shimla_manali.html" rel="nofollow">Himachal Tour Travel</a>Himachal Tourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15596811932751905072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-25450683577032325772019-05-18T22:02:12.688-07:002019-05-18T22:02:12.688-07:00There's certainly some amount of player-direct...There's certainly some amount of player-directed setting creation/definition in 'most every OSR game I've played. This came from in-session chatter: https://maziriansgarden.blogspot.com/2016/08/dreams-and-reality.html <br /><br />I invented several Orbital Gods in Gus's ASE game, and insisted that sapient rats were "Nimhs" on the Apollyon. Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07649420272387984400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-87956511753086924352019-05-14T23:45:40.832-07:002019-05-14T23:45:40.832-07:00Another wonderful post! Another wonderful post! Michael Kennedyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07814549625838944634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-24055465014309791162019-05-12T04:43:00.816-07:002019-05-12T04:43:00.816-07:00Thanks for the info! Gus L was by far my favourite...Thanks for the info! Gus L was by far my favourite RPG bloggerProiettivohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04385983534310775898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-25754325643026817732019-05-09T17:39:26.870-07:002019-05-09T17:39:26.870-07:00Yes the very same! He told me the other day that h...Yes the very same! He told me the other day that he's not sure whether it will see the light of day, which is a real shame, because it's really great. I still hope it will!Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-67929298174714670922019-05-09T10:19:51.801-07:002019-05-09T10:19:51.801-07:00Man, by the end of reading this article, I was com...Man, by the end of reading this article, I was completely jazzed to do some major tweaks to my plans for my next campaign--in a great way! Awesome writing, awesome ideas.jordyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05564390099871635743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-60023184989855554302019-05-08T23:03:23.704-07:002019-05-08T23:03:23.704-07:00Hi,
nice piece! I have a question for you, or whoe...Hi,<br />nice piece! I have a question for you, or whoever can answer, I see you quote a forthcoming "pyre coast" something from Gus L. Is this Gus L the same guy who use to write the awesome Dungeon of Signs blog? Of yes, where can I find more information about this pyre coast "something"?Proiettivohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04385983534310775898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-8088335689606150152019-05-06T07:40:16.398-07:002019-05-06T07:40:16.398-07:00You know, I once had a player in one of my 5E game...You know, I once had a player in one of my 5E game have a moment of illumination when, for the Nth time, I made the point that there was no main quests or side quests (as some players had just been listing off the "quests" they had to finish"). They were playing in a hex-crawling sandbox with faction play, but still definitely saw things in terms of character background and plot arc.<br /><br />But this time, he said: "But if there's no main quest or story arc, that might lead to more characters being amoral..."<br /><br />I said "Well, yes. Though that means that characters who are heroic are ACTUALLY heroic, because they've chosen to be."<br /><br />And I find this - to slightly round out your discussion on that issue - that some players still run characters who ARE heroic, despite a lack of DM incentive or enforcement (as in the classic, "this is the game we're playing tonight, so fight the bad guy or else there's no game").<br /><br />So, it turns out, when offered a moral landscape that, *visibly*, is much like the real world (not to say the real world doesn't have a moral God, or that your DnD setting doesn't have underlying moral values; I mean how the agents perceive matters), some characters are amoral, some are vicious and evil, and some few - very few, perhaps - are still courageous and decent and the rest of it.<br /><br />(To offer an example from another, ongoing 5E hexcrawl sandbox faction game with heavily-altered XP rules [XP for spending gold on given things rather than gaining it, XP for discovering landmarks in the jungle, etc]:<br /><br />Random encounter happens in open country. An adult red dragon (who is a faction in her own right) is rolled. The 2nd/3rd level party begins to scatter and hide, knowing this is way beyond them. I know that this will mean some of the PCs die - the dragon's gonna catch some of them.<br /><br />The LG Paladin, played by my most balls-out player, does not flee. He stands firm, draws his greatsword, and yells "Halt in the name of the rightful Queen!" I roll a Reaction check; 6 and 3, so 9. I ask for his Cha modifier, which is +3. Reaction for the dragon is 12.<br /><br />She's amused by the little man challenging her. It could have been very different; the next session a t-rex random encounter ended with the cleric being eaten and a lot of hijinx and fleeing needed to prevent a TPK. But this time, player/character choice - in this case, courage and a sense of duty to the Queen - leads to an awesome, emergent moment, and a development of the faction play.)Owen Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02033345001593862263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-84969952238542435482019-05-03T17:46:15.602-07:002019-05-03T17:46:15.602-07:00I definitely need to read your and Hill Cantons...I definitely need to read your and Hill Cantons's advice about making weird settings accessible to players. It's something I struggle with, and I'm sure others do too.<br /><br />One thing I've been thinking about railroads, is that reading most books is like playing a railroad game. The book is going to a destination along a set route. But you, as the reader, have to do work to get there.<br /><br />I don't really know what video game RPGs are like these days, but a lot of the ones I grew up with were like that. There was one (or one primary) path toward a destination, but you, as the player, have to do a particular kind of work to move along that path to get there.<br /><br />But it's a very solitary pleasure, between the lone reader/player, and the book/game itself.<br /><br />Even most non-linear novels or multi-path games still have a set amount of stuff you can possibly experience. (And this limitation usually means that the more paths there are, the shorter each one is, and one might genuinely wish to re-read/re-play to try to see EVERYTHING.)<br /><br />But although the solitary pleasure of reading is maybe the first thing we think of when we're trying to imagine how we would like an RPG to go, I agree with Retired Adventurer when he says that storytelling is actually a very poor model for what happens when multiple players and a judge sit down at the table together.<br />https://retiredadventurer.blogspot.com/2019/01/the-basis-of-game-is-making-decisions.html<br /><br />I'm sure railroad modules are fun to read novelistically, and maybe(?) fun for players who are willing to collaborate to turn the essentially solitary pleasure into a group activity. Although it seems analogous to doing a table-reading of a play, in the same way that a CRPG is analogous to reading a novel. Similarly, story games seem analogous to improv theater. Whereas "old school" games feel like they have a different genealogy, descended from boardgames more than from theater.Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15493700749333105771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-51120395383776864452019-04-29T19:08:29.509-07:002019-04-29T19:08:29.509-07:00This was excellent, thank you Ben.This was excellent, thank you Ben.qpophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15688150333185235575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-90203160328985476912019-04-29T13:28:21.616-07:002019-04-29T13:28:21.616-07:00Good post Ben. You describe well the style of D&a...Good post Ben. You describe well the style of D&D that I prefer.<br /><br />Adopting an entrepreneurial mindset to how they run their character (if this isn't already their default) can be hard for players who've grown used to "cooperate with the DM and we'll all have a good time". EOTBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17514955150414369244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-60304726951738156822019-04-29T12:02:18.350-07:002019-04-29T12:02:18.350-07:00Personally, I find that at my table, XP for gold i...Personally, I find that at my table, XP for gold is not much of a great motivator. Yes, players are happy when they find gold but they do so many things for reasons of their own it brightens my heart. And the reason, I think, is this: if a good deed is rewarded, if a good deed is done for the reward, I don't think it is "good." Getting into moral philosophy, here. Anyway, that's why I like to set up my game such that the greedy thing (like plundering) gets you the short term reward (gold, xp, levels) but doing the right thing requires sacrifice and delays and with that it gives you the true long term reward. And by sacrifice I mean foregoing rewards, sacrificing influence, property, retainers, characters, and thus time spent, I mean a true sacrifice that is felt by the players out of the game, not just by the characters in the game.Alex Schroederhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17104864340940538702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-74587258010439351772019-04-29T10:43:51.796-07:002019-04-29T10:43:51.796-07:00Thank for the lunch time read. Enjoyed the whole t...Thank for the lunch time read. Enjoyed the whole thing! Great links too.Jonathan Davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10055077746859104169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-2507696652267326192019-04-29T07:35:56.460-07:002019-04-29T07:35:56.460-07:00I do think that post about setting and snow flaker...I do think that post about setting and snow flakery came at a turning of the tide in the OSR (as in a larger moment not that my post was the catalyst). Previously I felt like the stick had been been bent way too far in the other direction.Chris Kutalikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01414743509426875792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-6185860845118227102019-04-29T07:31:52.713-07:002019-04-29T07:31:52.713-07:00Geez no apologies necessary, who knows what post o...Geez no apologies necessary, who knows what post of someone else I was channeling at the time. <br /><br />About your point about "top down" world building I think it's an unfortunately a word choice that implies negative connotations more broadly. Funnily enough I come out of a political organization that would often contrast "top down" (bad, authoritarian, elite-driven) with "bottom up" (good, people-centered, organic, democratic) so it always implies a certain negative association that I don't think follows. I mean there are other axis that are more important from such as yes openess, co-creativity, player agency etc that are completely independent from world building choices.Chris Kutalikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01414743509426875792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-56226147688781163522019-04-29T06:43:54.032-07:002019-04-29T06:43:54.032-07:00I definitely wouldn't define them that way. (A...I definitely wouldn't define them that way. (Actually, I don't really have a definition, it's probably a huge grab bag.) What I'm talking about is a tendency rather than a defining characteristic. One sees the railroading tendency in the main versions of D&D and its competitors (e.g. Pathfinder). One finds this tendency in D&D with some early modules, not mainly Gygax's, since he mainly did pretty open location-based adventures. (Tomb of Horrors is an exception.) Judge's Guild's stuff was also very open, which is one reason it gets so much love in the OSR. 5E D&D moved some ways towards enabling old school style play, which is what won a bunch of people my little neck of the woods back to it. Some of its adventures are a bit more open, but the tendency is still there. Whenever someone is thinking of a sequence of "scenes" or "encounters" the players must move through, the tendency is there.Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-68231950451274512242019-04-29T06:35:10.388-07:002019-04-29T06:35:10.388-07:00Yochai I actually haven't looked at Into the O...Yochai I actually haven't looked at Into the Odd, which is weird, I know. I have a PDF, let me take a look.Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-25938332702993537692019-04-29T02:59:04.909-07:002019-04-29T02:59:04.909-07:00I am curious to know if you think that the traditi...I am curious to know if you think that the traditional games defined only by railroading or there is something else.Kyanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12992025061183651850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-3038300675098517592019-04-28T14:55:24.945-07:002019-04-28T14:55:24.945-07:00Yes, so embarrasing. Of course that's what I m...Yes, so embarrasing. Of course that's what I meant. Slip of the pen! Thanks.Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-78542021597404336092019-04-28T14:45:28.241-07:002019-04-28T14:45:28.241-07:00Tory Tatter, OSR literally stands for "Old Sc...Tory Tatter, OSR literally stands for "Old School Renaissance". It is a self-conscious attempt to revive and build upon certain strands of old school play in creative ways. So certainly I'm talking about (some strands of) old school play. I disagree that the OSR is a "product line" though. It began on the blogosphere and the forums, and moved to google plus. Most people involved have never marketed or produced anything for sale. The OSR has acquired capacity to produce fancy products over the years, as people acquired skills, and the size of the audience grew. This has come with a literal and figurative cost. But still, at this point, it's very much a DIY phenomenon. Most people making products are still doing it out of their living rooms. In any case, why would you "never want to associate with OSR"?Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4202612634352350608.post-65712122262243531212019-04-28T13:51:59.058-07:002019-04-28T13:51:59.058-07:00I really think what you mean is old school play an...I really think what you mean is old school play and not osr. One can enjoy old school play without having anything to do with the osr, both of which are true of me (I enjoy old school play but would never want to associate with osr). Osr is more of a product line if anything. Tory Tatterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08092286965115811606noreply@blogger.com